The patent process basics for startups

Jerry P NewCo

February 3rd, 2013

Hello everyone, I wanted to get some input from the group regarding your
experiences with the patent process. More specifically:

.         Provisional vs. Full Patent

.         Cost

.         Doing it yourself vs. working with a patent attorney

.         Discovery process

.         What is patentable and what is not

.         Contact information of people or firms you have worked with and
the outcomes.

.         Others?


Ian Shakil Founder, CEO at Augmedix

February 4th, 2013

I applied for and was granted entry into the USPTO Pro Bono Assistance

I\'ve since been assigned a local patent attorney who is filing a
provisional, a non-provisional, and providing other light legal services,
completely no strings attached.

It\'s been a good experience. If you qualify, you should apply.


Ian Shakil

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Gerardo Barroeta <>wrote:

Max Avroutski Building EV Charging & Electric Energy Access company

February 10th, 2013

"poorly funded inventor" or not, no one should waste their time before checking if they would be�able�to use what they "work like a demon for a year" on, if it only takes a week or two to check.

"you can tweak the language in your non-provisional " - no you can\'t tweak the language and still get�earlier�provisional filing\'s Priority Date, unless it\'s something very inconsequential and then it defeats the proposed ability to "tweak".

Do you know that some companies buy or create patents just to stop everyone from using that technology. They are not interested in having anyone profit from it even themselves because it conflicts with their established business and if you succeed and they don\'t cut you down earlier, you and all of your investors will just hand over your company to them for free.�

One true example: few car companies and then an oil company bought into battery technology for electric cars that is comparable with lithium batteries in longevity and capacity but substentially cheapper and shelved it.�

I forgot to mention, before you start using any mark it would be prudent to first check USPTO and your state database for existing trademarks and once published for opposition just to make sure you don\'t infrenge on someone\'s trademark. To know where to search and how to interpret what you find get a book on that subject or if you don\'t have 3-20 hours to do this (10-20 hours the first time around to learn the process and 3-5 hours next time) then hire a lawyer.

I file my own trademarks now after I do the searches and save myself $1,200-$3,000 in legal fees every time.

Max Avroutski

--- On Tue, 2/5/13, Matthew Cordasco <matt

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Tony Rajakumar Founder/CEO at SnugBoo

February 4th, 2013

I\'d first ask if patents make sense in your case. If it\'s biotech for
example, then patents are the currency of the realm. If you\'re doing a
mobile app, then patents are likely not worth the time and expense. The
decision metric is this: if your product takes off, can a large company
knock it off easily and drive you out of the market? Then it\'s probably
worth a patent, as that acts as a deterrent first, and as a valuation
multiplier for an eventual acquisition second.

If it does make sense, budget $15k or so total (that\'s for filing and then
nursing it through the patent office to issuance). Start off with a
provisional you can file yourself for $150, making sure to pack it with as
much information plus creative twists on the invention and the areas of
applicability. It\'s ok - the patent office doesn\'t actually read it. It\'s a
placeholder, especially as the system is now first-to-file, meaning whoever
gets to the patent office first wins. You then have one year to decide
based on market developments whether it makes sense to file the final

The way the system has been gamed, there is not much that is not
patentable. There are two schools of thought on how to go about it. Most
attorneys advise you to not read any other patents and just file as broad
as you can. The idea is to let the patent office determine what\'s
patentable and what\'s not, betting some underpaid overworked examiner won\'t
find enough to make you narrow it too much, thus maximizing the area of the
patent. The other school says dive into the current patent set pertaining
to your application and then be crisp and clear about what\'s different and
just craft from that and cite the prior art. This makes for faster
examination (and less attorney costs) but of course you end up with a
narrower and thus perhaps less valuable patent.

I would definitely work with a patent attorney, especially one who has
filed patents in your general area.

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Gerardo Barroeta <>wrote:

Tony Rajakumar Founder/CEO at SnugBoo

February 10th, 2013

Matt\'s right on the following points:

- The rationale behind not doing research is that in the end if there\'s
a dispute over a patent\'s claims, it will likely be in a court. There will
only be a dispute if the patent\'s valuable, and at that point, it will be a
jury (if you\'re fortunate, in East Texas) at a trial that will be deciding
on the infringement. There\'s no way at this point to guess how that jury
will rule. So the idea is not to prejudge the jury and just file. The
examiner will let you know what parts of your application are problematic,
and you can then tune the claims to get past the examiner to get the patent
to issue. Note that I\'m simply explaining the rationale, and am not taking
a position on which is better. Most of my patents have been of the \'don\'t
research\' variety, but a few I filed after having the first set of patents
back from the examiner with prior art they found, so knowing where the gaps
were in the examiner\'s eyes was valuable info in terms of where to narrowly
target the subsequent patents.
- When you file the final app, the description of the invention can\'t
change, but you can change the claims all the way to issuance. In fact, you
change the claims in response to the examiner\'s objections. The
provisional\'s priority date will hold for the application.


Ian Shakil Founder, CEO at Augmedix

February 6th, 2013

One thing I\'ve often wondered:
Is it possible and reasonable to outsource lower-value patent work to low
cost overseas lawyers? I\'d really like to explore doing simple things (e.g.
trademarks, duplicating patents in other countries, etc.). Does anyone have
any trustworthy connections?


Ian Shakil

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Matthew Cordasco <>wrote:

Max Avroutski Building EV Charging & Electric Energy Access company

February 4th, 2013

1) "If you are filing a provisional, don\'t do any research. �Anything you
find that is related makes you liable for knowingly infringing." - completely wrong, do the research.

1.a) If you don\'t do the research you still be liable for infringement the larger of either a reasonable royalty or lost profits that result from infringement, while for deliberate infringement ("willful" infringement) punitive damages can be assessed up to three times the actual damages plus attorney fees.

1.b) Why would you want to invest your time and money using someone\'s active patent without permission? Anything you invest in that is lost. Find out first if what you are working on is patented or is published for opposition. See if you can get the license or buy it entirely. If it\'s patented and you can\'t get it, then see if you can invent improvement and restrict them from using it in some financially rewarding way and then license it back to them or to whoever they licensed it to. Alternatively, consider abandoning that direction and do something else.

One way or the other you are always better knowing than not knowing.

2) "When you file start using the � next to name/ logo and when you get the trademark issued start using the (�) " - this is incorrect.

You can use (TM) immediately on any mark that you wish to designate as a trademark.� No registration is required, and in most states this will actually give you some "common law" trademark rights.

You can use (R) only once you obtain a federal trademark registration from the US Patent and Trademark Office.� The process of applying for a federal trademark takes about a year, and during the application process you may NOT use the (R) symbol (doing so is illegal).� You must continue to use (TM) until the federal registration is issued.

Max Avroutski

--- On Mon, 2/4/13, Matthew Cordasco <matt

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Eric Rogness Technical Product Manager

February 4th, 2013

I responded to a related question on Quora, though I just edited it. I hadn\'t been aware of the USPTO\'s pro bono programs. 297-7126

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 10:31:36 -0500
Subject: Re: [FD Members] patents

Here are a few tidbits that may help:

1. Sparkfun electronics has a great article about their stance on patents.

2. I\'ve also heard people say that a patent isn\'t worth anything until you win in court.
3. if you want to license a product (i.e. a new idea for a toy that you approach Hasbro with) they may want you to have a patent, because that shows you didn\'t knock it off from someone else, which in turn, they worry about getting sued for.

4. a provisional patent is super super cheap, not too hard to file (just lots of paperwork), and you can write it yourself. it\'s basically a one year place holder to prove you filed first, gives you some protection if you talk about your idea publicly, and gives you a year to test your idea in the market before deciding to plunk down the money for a Utility patent. it also starts a click ticking, as the patent enters the public domain in one year if you don\'t follow on the provisional with a Utility.

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Clynton <> wrote:

Matthew Cordasco Co-founder and Head of Product

February 4th, 2013

My experience has been split over the years. When raising money, I often
hear first-time entrepreneurs mention they filed a patent�and they believe
that it means something. The investors don\'t care if you filed. They care
if you get one issued; but as some other responders pointed out, this could
take 3-5 years and some serious $$ (think $10k-$20k.)

On the other hand, I have seen acquisitions where the priority filing date
(when the provisional/ utility was first filed) was very attractive to the
acquirer who wanted to pursue the patent themselves and push off other folks
in their industry. But the lift in valuation has been marginal, it has
mostly served as another motivating factor to start negotiations in early
exists and smaller deals. Bigger deals will only care about issued patents,
and more specifically, if there are some players they think they can
prosecute for damages/ royalties. (In general a nasty business that I try
to avoid at all costs.)

If you are filing a provisional, don\'t do any research. Anything you find
that is related makes you liable for knowingly infringing.

As for attorneys, I like to write provisionals myself, have an attorney
format and file inexpensively and then have an attorney defend. Not the
most cost-effective way but strikes a good balance for me between self-serve
and full-service.

On a related note are Trademarks. I think these are very important indeed.
File two of them: one for the text-only name of your company and one for
your logo/ mark. Perform some basic research ahead of time to make sure
there is nobody else in a substantially similar/ related field and word it
broadly. If there is someone else is in your domain, you should probably
consider changing the name of your company sooner than later before you
build up brand equity. When you file start using the � next to name/ logo
and when you get the trademark issued start using the ( ) - this is an easy
way to ward off some level of trolls.

1. Investors don\'t care about patents you have filed, only ones that are
issued- and even then it depends on who you are talking to.
2. An issued patent is only useful if you have the wherewithal to actually
pursue someone in court.
3. File trademarks. They are fast, inexpensive, and a good foundation to
protect your brand equity.

Disclosure: I am not a lawyer, so take my advice for what it is- only
advice. Ping me directly if you want any more dirt.

Founder, (stealth-mode)

From: Gerardo Barroeta <jerry
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Tony Rajakumar Founder/CEO at SnugBoo

February 7th, 2013

Totally agree with the last line. If the patent is worth anything in the
future, you will be super happy you picked the best attorney vs the
cheapest one.

There are three parts to the patent puzzle:

* High-value stuff like claim construction, patent strategy, dealing with
the examiners, international patent strategy, etc. - this is where a good
patent attorney adds their value - and obviously not amenable to outsourcing
* Low-end stuff like filing paperwork, keeping track of deadlines, etc. -
this many patent places have outsourced internally anyways, and won\'t give
you much of a discount if you bring your own outsourced grunt to the table,
even if they agree to use them
* Stuff you can do - like provisionals, etc.

Thus, there\'s not much in there that you can feasibly outsource.

PS Ian - awesome find on the patent office pro bono stuff!

Krassimir Fotev Founder of Peer Belt Inc.

February 5th, 2013

Max: Good clarifications, especially the trademark discussion. A note on the need for extensive research when filing patent.

There is no way knowing what is in the USPTO pipeline, before the content gets published. So, do research, but do not get overly obsessed with it. Most importantly, do the research yourself! If you hire someone you are missing a great opportunity to learn.


Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Max <> wrote: