Angular.js ·

Why is it that shit companies get better outsourced IT projects ?

shalin j C#,, Javascript, SAAS, Mobile App-Makers

Last updated on February 24th, 2017

I have seen companies which dont know latest & fullproof technologies like Microservices, Devops, Azure service fabric, .Net core, MEAN stack, etc.but still they charge 50$/hr and there are clients hiring them.

In the other case, we are providing all the above mentioned latest technologies, still people go with old names and dont trust performing companies.

We are top rated Upwork professionals

Still No luck.

Shouldnt they be changing their mindset and shake hands with latest cutting edge technocrats ?

Michael Bittle Operating Partner - Independent Sponsor - Polymath

February 24th, 2017

The tone of your message says it all. Arrogance is a niche play. There are those for whom that resonates and you'll do well in that space. In the general marketplace, however, a bit more introspection and understanding of customer pain points beyond the tech are more important. Making a customer feel stupid and calling your competition 'shit' is not the most effective way to woo those clients. Eventually the market will determine who does not deliver, who deliver's crap and those firms will either evolve or expire. The same can be said for those firms who don't treat customers intelligently.

Michael Barnathan Adaptable, efficient, and motivated

Last updated on February 24th, 2017

This thread will probably be removed if you don't get rid of the upwork link.

To answer your question, companies that have been around a long time (and thus have a reputation/history) develop libraries and techniques around older pieces of technology. Using this older stack does not necessarily mark them as bad companies, while jumping to whatever the new hot technology is at any given moment might actually have a negative impact on their clients.

When I build things for clients, I use the tech that's best for their problem and the one that they'll most easily find other developers to maintain later in their lifecycle when they grow and build in-house teams. This need not be (and usually isn't) the newest or flashiest technology.

Also, since this is a sales-related question at its core, examine all aspects of your sales pitch.

Michael Graves e-commerce entrepreneur/health writer since 03/95

Last updated on February 24th, 2017

We have been outsourcing since 1999 and have been blessed with some excellent talent And have had to endure a litany of shysters and "artful dodgers".

The acrid and unprofessional tone of your post would make me say "Next"!

Bart Van Remortele Entrepreneur & Allround Developer

February 24th, 2017

Because not everything is about the "latest technologies". There is a lot more money to be made by working on legacy stacks than there is working on the latest flavor of the month framework.

What makes you think they are "shit companies"? Because they don't hire you? Not everyone wants to work the way you think they should work.

Karen Adams

February 24th, 2017


here are my observations;

  • you are wondering why prospects don't trust your company and appear to assume that cutting edge tech is the only consideration
  • you refer to your competitors as 'shit' and to the clients you seek as 'fools'
  • a change in attitude will run through all your dealings. Start there.
  • In order to get the client, you have to win their confidence. You have to be good with people.
  • For your projects to be successful, you'll need to establish great communication with the client.
  • next time you get turned down, ask for feedback. Offer a gift voucher if you have to, but learn why they are saying 'no'

Hope you win more business!

Rob G

Last updated on February 25th, 2017

Shalin; it's hard to find a place to start here. I'll start by saying that i am currently working with a dev team in India. It is painful. SO PAINFUL. I can't count the times i've wanted to reach through the Skype connection and hurt somebody. Those offshore dev teams that understand the source of potential frustrations and eliminate/mitigate them will win. So, despite your less than professional question, here's a good place to start: 1) Know your customer/prospects: your personal tag line states "top rated offshore enterprise software company". Enterprise scale companies very rarely offshore to no-name, small india dev shops on Upwork. That's a challenge. You can't expect to sell to customers who's business issues you don't know and understand well. 2) Be humble: "shouldn't they be changing their mindset...". You can wait for them to change their mindset OR you can change yours. 3) What are your competitive differentiators? competitive advantages? What i see in your question is "latest and greatest bleeding-edge tech which enterprise customers don't need/want to offshore and i expect them to send that work to us..." . Not going to happen. How many competitors do you have - how many offshore dev companies are there in India? china? east Europe? How many of those companies say "we know this tech, we have 500 bodies in the back room and our costs are low? 4) if you are the person in charge of marketing and/or sales for your firm i would suggest seeking some help from some people who have expertise in that area. Learn how sales works, especially to "enterprise" customers. As one example: everything you say and post online has an impact. even posting a question here reflects on you and your company. aside from your decision to describe your competitors as "shit" and to blame your prospects for 'not changing their mindset" there are some errors in your written communication (english) which is all too common when dealing with offshore companies. SW dev is about precision and attention to detail. Errors in written communication reflect a lack of attention to detail (right or wrong). It may seem minor, but it would be a welcome differentiator to see an offshore dev shop with high quality if not near flawless written communication skills - how refreshing. I can't tell you the last time i saw an offshore dev website that didn't reflect poor quality in their written communications. 5) I can't over emphasize number 1 above. I'll give you a hint about offshoring dev work from the US to India. Two of the biggest issues are trust and risk. These span a broad spectrum of subjects, but keep these in mind as you re-think your approach to sales/marketing. IN EVERYTHING YOU DO ASK "HOW CAN WE MAXIMIZE TRUST AND MINIMIZE RISK". As just one example, you seem to wonder why customers will pay $50/hr to "old name" companies but not trust you at some lower cost. It comes down to trust and risk. Paying a low cost to some no-name company on Upwork does nothing to address trust and very little to address risk. Trust is all about doing what you say you will do. If you screw up, fix it, make it right. As a customer, knowing that you will do what you say you will do reduces my risk. So as you can see, trust is HUGE. 6) focus on you, not your competitors. calling your larger, more established competitors "shit" tells me you are more interested in what you think your competitors can't do than you are in what you can do. 7) understand your customer/prospects: You state that you have 8 years of experience in a manner that implies that you see this as a badge of honor. Compared to many of your competitors that may be a positive, but from a customer's perspective that tenure barely gets you over the threshold. Again, understand your customer/prospect. Let me say that again UNDERSTAND YOUR CUSTOMER/PROSPECT. First off i would team up with someone/some company that knows the market you are trying to penetrate and act like a sponge - soak up everything you can about how business gets done in that market and why. If you want to understand why you are not winning more deals ask. Every time you lose a deal ask why. Every time you win a deal ask why. good luck.

Wes Deviers CS nerd entrepreneur w/ extensive net/DBA/sys/etc

February 24th, 2017

First, some background. I manage the datacenter team for a company you've definitely heard of, but not an F1000. I'm also heavily involved with the development organization.

Most of the things other people have said are probably true, but I don't actually know you. So you may, in fact, be awesome at what you do. The skill you may need to learn, then, is to tone down the type of full-of-yourself waves that people are assuming you have based on this post. It could also be, however, that English isn't your first language, in which case everything most of the people is shaded by that understanding.

First, to the kind of companies you're talking about, $50/h is paltry. Finding a team that can deliver sprints on the tech stack that you need is an exercise in slamming your head against walls for months or years, however. So when you go to Upwork (or India) you're looking for the feeling that company you're going to hire can reliably deliver in the things you need today.

Now, what do you need today?

I have world-class experts on my team, and in the company in general. Rails, Node.js, UI/UX, Devops, microservices, and unfortunately even some Java. All of that? No problem. But what if for some silly reason we suddenly needed to support an ASP app? That we'd have to farm out. Nobody uses it, nobody wants to use it.

Do we want bells and whistles? No! Absolutely not! We want as close to a stock, reference architecture as possible. And that's because, by farming it out, we know it's going to be low quality as compared to what we can create ourselves. So the last thing we want is low-quality code that's exponentially more complicated than it needs to be.

The problem with what you're calling "technocrats" is that they'll abandon you on a moment's notice for something that looks shiny. Every 6 months or year, you'll get a new team with hot new ideas...that require a complete refactor of the code. Why, though? Practically infinite reasons -

  • The team used a bench of their favorite libraries for .net that are actually awful, totally unsupported, and the code is written incorrectly so now we have to rewrite all of the ORM queries.
  • The team claimed they knew MySQL but they actually knew Oracle and now we're taking down the application all the time from freshman-level SQL mistakes
  • Somebody built the entire thing using (|AWS|Azure|GCE) specific API calls and now the CTO wants us to switch to a cheaper provider.
  • Some "architect" wanted to learn Elixer and the PM didn't understand what Erlang was, so now we're stuck with this absurd stack nobody in the world can support.
  • etc
  • etc

So it's not about changing their minds, it's about delivering things on time. In most companies, time is much more critical than budget. If you go 10-20% over budget but hit your release date that is a highly successful launch. If you go 10% under budget but slip? You screwed up.

So it's not about money, or even the technology stack. We do startup-like things with our inhouse teams. We're reasonably cutting edge...but I'm never going to farm that out. The cost to fail for an in-house team is much cheaper than the cost for an outsourced team to fail. In-house, if a dev team tries to deploy an HA application with all of the new hotness (unknown database, weird-ass language, whatever is replacing Bootstrap in 3 years, etc) that's fine. We've paid them to fail, but they learned a ton that will be useful on the next project. If we do the exact same thing with an outsourced team, we've paid them to fail so that their next client will benefit.

Benjamin Van As Benjamin Van As - Advisory prof & Founder

February 27th, 2017

The fact that they don't use the latest tech does not automatically mean they are shit. You may find these companies have an established track record, and good market reputation = credibility. This means old customers are happy to go back and new ones are easily convinced, and they have multiple references. Also it means their business management should be healthy plus their pricing vs quality acceptable.

Rather try work out what they can offer that you don't, or try to find another competitive advantage that they don't have. And work on your company's reputation in the market. Consider taking subcontracts from the older established firms to build your company's up and get references

Paul Garcia marketing exec & business advisor

February 26th, 2017

Getting companies to change their mindset is a steeply uphill battle. You will rarely change how a company already thinks. That said, some mindsets refuse to offshore any kind of work, no matter the proposed benefits. Not sure what you mean by "better" projects. Do you mean more lucrative? Also not sure what you mean by s*** companies. Do you mean ones that you feel technically superior to? Business decisions are only rational part of the time. The saying here is that it's not what you know but whom you know. The person buying services only has to satisfy one condition, that they won't be embarrassed by choosing the service they buy. Price is not the first consideration in any decision. This has been studied extensively. And you may be assuming that the people making purchasing decisions even know much about what is possible or what to consider in their proposal requests. That may not be the case. Countless times I have witnessed department heads seeking support services that are just like what was done before. They don't know what to ask for that's new or improved, because they simply have no exposure to it, and don't expand their point of view because that does one of two things: 1) introduces risks, or 2) makes them look internally like they have failed to keep up as they should with new technologies.

Trust is earned, not by what you say, but in what others say about you. Decision makers trying not to look foolish will go with older, slower, less leading edge companies because age implies wisdom, whether that's true or not. Anything new is considered a potential risk. You may see it from the perspective that not going with the new is a greater risk. The education curve in selling complex products and services is steep. If you want to be persuasive, you need to teach decision makers how to make good decisions. Don't necessarily sell your company's offerings. Instead, educate clients on how to evaluate the quality of the offerings that exist within the marketplace. Not only do customers need to learn which questions to ask potential suppliers, but they need to understand the PERSONAL BENEFIT of certain types of answers.

There are three elements to persuasion in a purchasing decision. You must clearly demonstrate 1) personal benefit, 2) dramatic difference, and 3) reason to believe. What most people might consider a dramatic difference is not dramatic enough. To inspire change, even a 20% improvement is rarely enough. Look at this from the customer's perspective. Listen to the objections you hear and figure out what the real motivations are.

Common objections include: price too high, out of budget cycle, delayed decision, bad prior experience, needs executive approval, needs more detailed info, wants to pick and choose, wants discount, no previous experience with you, doesn't use (detailed item), wants a guarantee, wants references, wants to know if competitors are using your product/service, wants exclusivity. All of these are really hiding value questions. For what they're buying they don't trust that they will look like they made the right decision choosing you.

It can be very frustrating. But people are frequently not rational. When someone tells you, "I will never offshore work," how do you reply? An educated consumer is the best type of customer, but educating that consumer can be a high cost, and they may still not choose you. But they will at least respect you. One of the best examples I can think of was interviewing more than a decade ago for an in-house marketing job. The company never had a marketing person before and was debating whether to hire an agency or an internal employee. At the end of our conversations I gave them three questions to ask any agency before hiring them, and explained why they needed the answers to those three questions. I told them if they were not satisfied with those three answers, they should not hire the agency. A year later they sought me out and hired me, a long time to win, yes, but they never found an agency that could answer those three questions the right way. And they knew who had taught them something of value.

Encourage prospective clients you talk with to share the lessons you teach them about how to hire the right kind of service provider. It will feed back to you.

Candis Best

Last updated on March 20th, 2017


Judging from your February 25th post it sounds like you may be the one whose feelings were hurt. You've received quite a bit of really good advice here that you don't seem able to accept because you don't like the fact that it also addressed your tone. You might want to take a deep breath and read these posts again because the answers you seek are right in front of you.